Positioning with April Dunford April Dunford

In today’s episode, Brent Adamson and I explore what works and what doesn't work on sales teams, and Brent’s ideas for how we should arm sales teams to go out and win in the market. 
My guest today is Brent Adamson, a researcher, author, presenter, and thinker with a passion for “productive disruption.”
You will learn: 
* The origins of the Challenger Sale concept and how the term "challenger" refers to salespeople who teach customers about their industries and challenge their assumptions, rather than simply telling them what to do.
* Challenging customers to think differently.
* Customer context has changed radically in the last 10 years, making large-scale decisions more complex.
* Why some customers are overwhelmed by internal complexity, information, inability to align on goals, marketing, conflicting messages, etc. 
* Why many marketers misunderstand the customer journey. 
* The supplier selection is a critical problem to solve, but often occurs after the sales side has already been solved for.
* Helping customers feel more confident in their decision-making abilities, rather than simply presenting them with new information.
* How the Challenger Sales approach involves both frame breaking and frame making, with the goal of helping customers navigate their own internal complexity and alignment with colleagues.
* Understanding the buyer's journey. 
* Using value to demonstrate customer confidence, not the other way around.
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If you want to skip ahead: 
(3:22) Sales research findings, including the Challenger Sale study. 
(6:12) Sales profiling, with a focus on the Challenger Sale approach. 
(11:31) Challenging customers to think differently. 
(14:27) Sales strategies. 
(18:05) How buying decisions have become more complex and involve more stakeholders, creating challenges for sellers. 
(23:04) Marketing strategies. 
(28:10) Navigating complex decision-making in business. 
(38:17) Customer confidence and alignment in B2B sales. 
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Connect with Brent Adamson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brentadamson/ 
Get Brent’s books from Amazon: https://amzn.to/3wlHOu4 
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Connect with April Dunford and learn about practical positioning that accelerates marketing and sales: 
Work with April: https://www.aprildunford.com/contact 
April’s newsletter: https://aprildunford.substack.com/ 
April’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/ 
April’s Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/aprildunford 
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Mentioned in this episode: 
* Brent Adamson and Matthew Dixon’s book, The Challenger Sale: Taking Control of the Customer Conversation: https://amzn.to/3UsTcfG 
* Brent Adamson, Matthew Dixon, Pat Spenner, and Nick Toman’s book, The Challenger Customer: Selling to the Hidden Influencer Who Can Multiply Your Results: https://amzn.to/3Ut41y2 
* “Sensemaking for Sales,” Brent Adamson’s article in The Harvard Business Review: a href="https://hbr.org/2022/01/sensemaking-for-sales" rel="noopener noreferrer"...

In today’s episode, I explore why market category is a good starting point for developing great positioning. 
You will learn: 
* Viewing your market category is context-setting for your products/company. 
* Thinking of your market category as being similar to the opening scene of a movie. (See link below for my article about this idea, which includes the opening scene of the movie Baby Driver.) 
* Understanding your product/company's unique value proposition before determining market category.
* Why positioning involves identifying what sets your product apart from competitors and the status quo.
* Why positioning in an underserved segment of an existing market category is easier than creating a new category.
* Communicating the differentiated value of your product or service.
* Why companies need to go deeping into their value props to help customers understand how they can deliver unique value for their business.
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If you want to skip ahead: 
(3:50) Market categories and their role in positioning products/companies, with a focus on differentiated value. 
(7:46) Positioning and messaging for startups, focusing on understanding customer needs and differentiated value. 
(11:26) Positioning and market categories in business.
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Connect with April Dunford and learn about practical positioning that accelerates marketing and sales: 
Work with April: https://www.aprildunford.com/consultant
April’s newsletter: https://aprildunford.substack.com/ 
April’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/ 
April’s Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/aprildunford 


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Mentioned in this episode: 
* My article about market category in which I discuss the opening scene of the movie Baby Driver: https://aprildunford.substack.com/p/understanding-the-job-of-a-market  
* Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind, a book by Al Ries and Jack Trout: https://amzn.to/3JrR4zJ  

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Get April Dunford’s books and audiobooks: 
“Obviously Awesome: How to Nail Product Positioning so Customers Get It, Buy It, Love It.”
“Sales Pitch: How to Craft a Story to Stand Out and Win.”
Amazon US: https://amzn.to/49l0ZRY 
Amazon Canada: https://amzn.to/4ac9hgt 
Amazon UK: https://amzn.to/3vosDzQ

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The Positioning with April Dunford podcast: Want to make your product stand out in a crowded market? It all starts with great positioning. Using April’s battle-tested methodology, she'll teach you the nitty-gritty of positioning so that you can unlock better marketing and sales performance.
Podcast website: https://www.positioning.show/ 
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: a href="https://apple.co/3PFHcWx" rel="noopener noreferrer"...

In today’s episode, I talk with a technology entrepreneur about lessons related to his product initially being mispositioned in the market and also the challenges of positioning both free and paid versions of software solutions. 
Joining me is Abhinav Asthana, founder and CEO of Postman, an API platform for software developers to build and use APIs.
In today’s episode: 
* How Postman's positioning evolved from a product-focused approach to a platform-focused approach, with different positioning for end-users and executives.
* Building Postman with the conviction that modern software is built on APIs, and evangelizing (positioning) this idea to investors.
* Why top-down positioning needs to align with company strategy. 
* The value of working with analysts to understand customer needs and improve products.
* Positioning software in terms of satisfying customer needs.
* The importance of staying ahead of competitors in the enterprise software market.
* The challenges of competing with free products and prioritizing user experience.
* Abhinav advises talking to 50-100 customers per year to gain insights and build conviction in product decisions.
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If you want to skip ahead: 
(2:24) Origin story of Postman. 
(7:19) Postman's growth, fundraising, and positioning challenges. 
(12:57) API platform growth and top-down sales strategies. 
(18:03) Taking an API-first approach in software development and marketing strategies. 
(28:19) Scaling velocity, competitors, and customer engagement in the enterprise software space. 
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Connect with Abhinav Asthana on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abhinavasthana/ 
Learn about Postman’s API platform: https://www.postman.com/ 

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Connect with April Dunford and learn about practical positioning that accelerates marketing and sales: 
Work with April: https://www.aprildunford.com/contact 
April’s newsletter: https://aprildunford.substack.com/ 
April’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/ 
April’s Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/aprildunford 

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Mentioned in this episode: 
“Breaking Changes,” a podcast where Postman Chief Evangelist Kin Lane and guests talk about the API universe: https://www.postman.com/events/breaking-changes/
“The API-First Transformation,” a book by Kin Lane with a foreword by Abhinav Asthana: https://amzn.to/3PZzEOy 

—

Get April Dunford’s books and audiobooks: 
“Obviously Awesome: How to Nail Product Positioning so Customers Get It, Buy It, Love It.”
“Sales Pitch: How to Craft a Story to Stand Out and Win.”
Amazon US: https://amzn.to/49l0ZRY 
Amazon Canada: https://amzn.to/4ac9hgt 
Amazon UK: a href="https://amzn.to/3vosDzQ" rel="noopener noreferrer"...

Welcome to Season 2! In today’s episode, I explore why positioning fails to make the jump from marketing to sales in many companies, and what common misconceptions and mistakes in positioning work should be avoided.
You will learn: 
* Why sales teams often lack a deep understanding of positioning and its importance in the sales process.
* Communicating value and positioning product consistently across all sales calls, even for new sales reps.
* What happens when marketing creates positioning without consulting sales, leading to disconnect between the two teams.
* The disconnect between sales teams and marketing teams, as marketing decks often don't account for the need for discovery and objection handling during sales calls.
* Two common unspoken objections in sales pitches: pricing and change management.
* Common challenges in transitioning positioning from marketing to sales, including inadequate decks. 
* In enterprise and B2B deals, multiple stakeholders involved in a deal can lead to multiple pitch decks, making the process more complicated.
* Customizing pitch decks for the champion, with a focus on resonating with their needs and concerns, rather than trying to address the objections of other stakeholders in the deal.
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If you want to skip ahead: 
(0:01) Positioning in B2B marketing and sales. 
(4:25) Sales strategy and customer understanding. 
(8:55) Why marketing and sales positioning often doesn't align. 
(13:18) Sales pitches and unspoken objections. 
(18:00) B2B purchase process and positioning for sales. 
(23:24) Customizing sales pitch decks for different personas. 
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Connect with April Dunford and learn about practical positioning that accelerates marketing and sales: 
Work with April: https://www.aprildunford.com/contact 
April’s newsletter: https://aprildunford.substack.com/ 
April’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/ 
April’s Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/aprildunford 
—
Get April Dunford’s books and audiobooks: 
“Obviously Awesome: How to Nail Product Positioning so Customers Get It, Buy It, Love It”
“Sales Pitch: How to Craft a Story to Stand Out and Win”
Amazon US: https://amzn.to/49l0ZRY 
Amazon Canada: https://amzn.to/4ac9hgt 
Amazon UK: https://amzn.to/3vosDzQ
—
The Positioning with April Dunford podcast: Want to make your product stand out in a crowded market? It all starts with great positioning. Using April’s battle-tested methodology, she'll teach you the nitty-gritty of positioning so that you can unlock better marketing and sales performance.
Podcast website: https://www.positioning.show/ 
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3PFHcWx 
Subscribe on Spotify: https://spoti.fi/4aqyDqI 
Subscribe on YouTube: a href="https://www.youtube.com/@positioningshow" rel="noopener noreferrer"...

Today, I’m going to discuss how to have consistent positioning and messaging across sales and marketing using tactics from my book Sales Pitch. You will learn: 


Why marketers at B2B companies should start with the sales pitch first
An overview of buyer’s guides and the components of the best ones
How to create an explainer video using the sales pitch structure
Why all content should target the proper persona 
Examples of graphics used to educate buyers 
Other types of content that can be structured around the sales pitch 



You'll also hear that this is the final episode of Season 1, as I'm excited to take a break from podcasting for the rest of the year. Thanks for listening and supporting the podcast, and I look forward to recording more content next year!



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If You Want To Skip Ahead:

(00:21) An overview of my consulting work and season 1 finale

(01:11) Why marketing should center their storytelling on what works for sales

(05:30) How and why to use a buyer’s guide with customers 

(09:13) How to incorporate the Sales Pitch structure into explainer videos 

(10:20) Other places pieces of the sales narrative may work well

(11:07) The significance of different personas  

(12:10) Leveraging the sales narrative set up phase for conference talks

(13:30) How graphics can enhance understanding of differentiated value 

(14:09) The graphics Postman created to illustrate its features and capabilities 

(16:20) Gitlab’s infinity graphic

(17:16) Salesforce’s confusing infographic 

(19:30) Other ways to use my Sales Pitch structure

(21:13) Closing thoughts



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Where To Find April Dunford:

Podcast Website: ⁠https://www.positioning.show/⁠ 

Personal Website: ⁠https://www.aprildunford.com/⁠ 

LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/⁠ 

Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/aprildunford/⁠ 

Twitter: ⁠https://twitter.com/aprildunford⁠



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Referenced:

Sales Pitch: How to Craft a Story to Stand Out and Win: ⁠https://www.amazon.com/Sales-Pitch-Craft-Story-Stand/dp/1999023021⁠

Postman: ⁠https://www.postman.com/⁠

What is Postman: ⁠https://www.postman.com/product/what-is-postman/⁠

The API platform landscape: ⁠https://blog.postman.com/2022-api-platform-landscape-trends-and-challenges/⁠

Gitlab Infinity: ⁠https://gitlab.com/infinity7x⁠

Salesforce Customer 360: ⁠https://www.salesforce.com/ap/blog/what-is-salesforce-customer-360/⁠

Obviously Awesome: How to Nail Product Positioning so Customers Get It, Buy It, Love It: ⁠https://www.amazon.com/Obviously-Awesome-Product-Positioning-Customers/dp/1999023005⁠



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Production and marketing by ⁠https://penname.co/

It's frustrating to see the widespread misuse of business terminology in the corporate world. Terms such as strategy, positioning, and vision are frequently interchanged or confused. Today, I'll clarify these terms, discussing when and how to use them. I’ll share with you:


The difference between strategy, vision, and positioning 
Pitching to investors vs. pitching to potential customers
The importance of adapting positioning
An explanation of Geoffrey Moore’s “bowling pin” strategy
Examples of implementing the “bowling pin” strategy earlier in my career
Why you don’t need a story for your strategy
The importance of having a shared vocabulary within your organization

Thanks for listening! 



If You Want To Skip Ahead:

(00:17) How the book tour is going

(01:02) A brief overview of vision, strategy, and positioning 

(04:02) The difference between pitching to investors and potential customers 

(06:30) How positioning evolves as your strategy progresses

(07:18) How to use the “bowling pin” strategy 

(08:21) “Bowling pin” strategy examples from Janna Systems and Tulip Retail

(13:51) Common pitfalls people make in discussing strategy

(17:24) The importance of clarifying terminology with your team members

(18:55) Closing thoughts



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Where To Find April Dunford:

Podcast Website: https://www.positioning.show/ 

Personal Website: https://www.aprildunford.com/ 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aprildunford/ 

Twitter: https://twitter.com/aprildunford

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Referenced:

Good Strategy Bad Strategy: The Difference and Why It Matters: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-Bad-Difference-Matters/dp/0307886239

Crossing the Chasm: Marketing and Selling Disruptive Products to Mainstream Customers: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-3rd-Disruptive-Mainstream/dp/0062292986



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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/